What's the state of Nintendo's indie program? Earlier this year, Dan Adelman -- who had long been the company's most prominent booster of independent developers -- left Nintendo after a long period of public silence. In the wake of that, we began to wonder: What is Nintendo doing for independent developers? What does it want to see on its platforms? Nintendo has a reputation for being closed off -- and it's clearly earned that reputation. But some independent developers, like Renegade Kid's Jools Watsham (Mutant Mudds) have spoken about just how easy and rewarding it is to work with the company. Much more must be going on there than is apparent on the surface. To find out more, Gamasutra spoke to Damon Baker and David Wharton. Baker is the senior manager of marketing in the licensing department; he works with external developers directly. Wharton is director of marketing and analytics for Nintendo's network business department, which is its online storefront, the eShop. The conversation took place at Seattle's EMP museum, where an exhibit, Indie Game Revolution, opened this past weekend dedicated to independent games; it's sponsored by Nintendo. The interview that resulted -- which is edited, but still long -- spells out where the company is as regards independent developers in 2014. 
Damon Baker and David Wharton at the EMP exhibit. The last time I spoke to someone to Nintendo about this was with Dan Adelman. Obviously he's left the company. So, what's new in this "new era" of no Dan? I don't want to focus the question on him, but I haven't had a chance to talk to you guys about things, so tell me about your thinking. Damon Baker: Dan was working in our department and we're still really close with him. He's doing a great job on his own thing, and we're going to continue to work with him in the future, so that's exciting. In terms of what has changed since, not a lot has changed, because I think he was more of a face for our indie community and our relationship with those developers, but it's always been a team effort in the organization -- whether working with David and his team on eShop and data collection, or working with other departments. 
The eShop on the 3DS and Wii U We bring the content through, from an operations standpoint. We have a business development division. We have a marketing division as well. So it's always been a bunch of people that have been involved in that. And so, at least right now, we haven't filled his position, but we have all hands on deck that are answering questions, that are giving advice on what great content they're seeing. It's almost more like a committee basis at this point, at least in terms of how we're working with the independent community. How do you get games onto your platforms? Do you go look for them? Do they come to you? I'm sure it's both, but please talk a bit about how it works. DB: It's absolutely both. They're really passionate developers who grew up with Nintendo platforms and they've always had a vision of their games on a Nintendo platform, so they're very proactive about reaching out to us, and we direct them to the developer website and get them signed up as quickly as possible, so they can then get a development kit and get on their way. Additionally, we are proactive, ourselves, in going to different trade shows and going to different indie meetups and shows, and seeing what type of content is out there, and hearing the buzz that is going on, online, in terms of what we should be paying attention to and what we should be going after. So it's a bit of both. I saw the Nintendo Direct; you were at IndieCade. You were exhibiting titles that were on your platforms, but I'm assuming you were also talking to developers. 
Baker interviewing an indie developer at IndieCade on Nintendo Direct DB: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because the first day of IndieCade, they had the IndieXchange, which are the classroom sessions. So we did a presentation, a bit of a background on how to become a developer, and our self-publishing business, the tools that are available -- things like Unity and the Nintendo Web Framework, which is basically HTML5 and Java support. We did some tech demos and live demonstrations of how easy it is to bring content over to the Web Framework, in front of the crowd, so that was pretty cool to be able to do that. And then we did have the speed dating and the different sessions where people can come to us and pitch their game ideas and concepts, and just get information on how to get started. So it was a busy day. I think we were booked from 9 until 4:30, with meetings every 15 minutes, with the indie developers. And them from 4:30 to 6:30, we had three-minute meetings that were packed back-to-back. Three-minute meetings? DB: Yeah. It was a speed dating round that IndieCade organizes, and they had a timer, and people came in and had three minutes to do a presentation on their game, so we got exposed to a ton of content over the course of a day. It was non-stop. What do you look for when you see a game or meet a developer, that makes you say, "Oh, yeah. We'd like to see this on our platforms"? DB: Well, we don't really judge, because people have different interests, and we can't really narrow that down to just whatever it is that I like, or that I think the licensing department likes. So we do have that open-door policy, and allow everything to be coming in.
"I think what I look for, though, are those things where the developer is passionate about it, and has also done their homework in terms of how to maximize the opportunity."
I think what I look for, though, are those things where the developer is passionate about it, and has also done their homework in terms of how to maximize the opportunity. It's one thing to come in and say, "I have this great idea," and it's written on a piece of paper, and they have nothing to show for it. But there's the different level where they've done their research, they're integrated into the community, they've talked to other developers that have brought content to Nintendo platforms, and they already have some idea of best practice. And then it's about amplifying it, and taking it to the next level, so that more people can see it. And there are some really great opportunities out there. Do you help make those connections? If I were to think about what indies you should speak to about bringing content to Nintendo, it would be Nicalis, it would be Image & Form, it would be Yacht Club, and Renegade Kid. DB: Our "Nindie" community! Those would be the obvious ones. But do you facilitate those conversations? DB: Yeah, we help with that. But they're also very proactive on their own accord. All of those guys have actually written stories and essays and revealed a lot of insight in terms of what to expect as an indie developer, your first venture into this space, and I think a lot of that is amazing educational material. [Ed. Note: There are examples of just this thing on Gamasutra already. Nicalis' Tyrone Rodriguez talks about the 3DS' potential for game sales here; Image & Form's Olle Håkansson writes about designing SteamWorld Dig here; Yacht Club's David D'Angelo talks about Shovel Knight's sales here; Renegade Kid's Jools Watsham blogs about self-publishing here.] Do you fund indie games? DB: No. We don't have a Pub Fund type of thing. Really, our point of differentiation is on the relationships that we build with those guys. We invest a lot of time and energy and internal resources supporting these guys. A lot of independent developers are amazing coders, and amazing at bringing experiences to life, but they may not be as familiar with how to market their game, or how to promote it, or how to take that to the next level. So we put in a lot of resources there to kind of hold their hands and show them examples of how they can make the most of it, and they can then use those tools for all of their future releases as well, regardless of platform. Some obvious promotional channels that Nintendo offers are the eShop itself and Nintendo Direct. Is there anything I'm missing? DB: Well, we participate in different trade shows, showcasing indie content there. We do media tours across the country. We have newsletters, social media, YouTube. Our YouTube channel is fantastic in terms of promoting all of their videos and trailers that are coming out. We work really closely with David and his team on marketing and merchandising opportunities within the eShop. David Wharton: On top of that -- on top of just all of those channels -- we try and create a whole bunch of promotional opportunities that independents can participate in. Where rather than promoting a single title, we're making them be part of something larger. Because one of the things we've found is that when we have a bigger story to tell, consumers respond to that. Whether it's an indie sale or whether it's something around a particular theme, or a particular event like PAX or E3, if we can tell a bigger story, we can create these promotional events that they can participate in. When they can take advantage of the fact that we have a whole bunch of people all coming to the platform at the same time. DB: Yeah, IndieCade is a big deal for us, in that we've participated in the last two years with the booth space. It's completely dedicated to third-party content and indie developers. And also, over the last two years, we've been able to tie that into Nintendo Direct promotion as well, and amplify that message and that presence we've had there. Those developers are absolutely thrilled to be getting that type of exposure to an expanded audience. So, when you're going to go promote someone's game, how do you make that decision? I feel like, on the 3DS eShop in particular, there are a lot of little games I've never heard of. So how do you make the choice of who's going to get a little bit more of a push? DB: There are a lot of factors that come into play. But we're looking for quality. We're looking for unique experiences. We look for people that are utilizing our console functionality in unique ways -- so if they're embracing using the [Wii U's] GamePad or using 3D or touch-screen, or motion control, or any of those types of things, that helps create a point of differentiation that we can then, it gives us more bullet points we can point out and promote across the board. I would say the number one thing is back to the relationship-building. If you've got a developer that is reaching out to us, that is communicating with us, that is giving us advance notice on when their release is coming out and where it is in the pipeline, what they're doing to help promote it, then we are much more prone to helping promote their content when it becomes available. But if we only find out about a game at the last second, then it really limits the amount of opportunity we have to maximize that launch period. DW: We also look at "who's that game for" and whether we have a broad base of content that targets that consumer. So if we know we'll be launching some full game download -- whether it's first party or third party -- we'll want to merchandise smaller content that might also suit that audience at the same time. We'll find that people will come in for one title and wind up buying two. So we want to make sure we have some titles that have some kind of halo effect. We'll match that same audience type. So having a clearly defined audience is important. The other thing is we look at what our consumers are interested in. There are some titles that surprise us. Every once in a while I'll look at the sales results and go, "What is that game?" And all of the sudden we'll see a spark in interest, and sometimes it's what the developer has done, sometimes it's something that our communities have done through their own social media, or what have you, and sometimes there's a sudden spike in interest around a title and we'll just bring it to the forefront to see if we can amplify it. That actually touches a question I want to ask. A little while ago, you gave a presentation about the demographics of the eShop. The gist of it is that it would be similar to the audience you see on Steam: A little bit older, maybe, than Nintendo has a reputation for. That makes sense to me. But the more important question is not so much demographic, but what is it that these people actually like? DW: Behavior trumps demographics every time. Right. So do you have that information, and can you share it with devs? Or is there anything you'd like to communicate to devs about who plays, and what kind of games matter to them? DB: I think, back to David's earlier point, it's really about the type of gameplay experiences that people enjoy on the platform in the first place. So if you've got a lot of people coming in and playing Mario Kart and Smash Bros. on Wii U, you know there's a big fanbase for local multiplayer or couch co-op. So, upcoming titles -- like, we just launched Sportsball today, which is an amazing multiplayer game that really encourages some extensive trash-talking, and then Chariot, and then Runbow coming out in 2015. These are titles that people, they already like these types of games, and they're seeing how indie developers are putting their own spin on them and doing something unique with them, and it's like, "Oh, this makes a lot of sense." [Ed. note: You can read a blog about the development of Sportsball
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